Podcast: Ep 33 - Breastfeeding and ... the 8 month old baby

Breastfeeding and ... the 8 month old baby

Why won’t my baby sleep? Eight months can be a tricky age, and lots of parents find things change quickly. Jessica and Jennifer chat about what’s going on at this stage of development.

Credits: This episode is presented by Jessica Leonardand Jennifer Hurrell. Audio editing and show notes by Jessica Leonard. Transcription by Leanne Matthews. Produced by Belinda Chambers, Jessica Leonard and Jennifer Hurrell.

Jennifer – I think the biggest challenge, though, is a lot of people notice that sleep changes in eight months.  People quite often, I've heard lots of people talk about a sleep regression and I think that's really challenging for us as parents because what that feels like is we're going backwards in something bad has happened, but in fact it's a progression, it's a sleep progression. Our child is developed and grown. At eight months they’re aware that we're still in the house. They know we still exist when they can't see us. So if they wake up and they can't see us, they may call out. We're in the living room having a bit of private time, watching some telly because they've gone to bed and they call out in a way that before they may not have.

<music>

Jessica – Welcome to Breastfeeding with ABA, a podcast brought to you by volunteers from the Australian Breastfeeding Association. Breastfeeding with ABA is a podcast about breastfeeding made by parents for parents. In this episode, we'll be chatting about the eight month-old baby. My name is Jessica and I'm a Breastfeeding Counsellor with the Australian Breastfeeding Association.  My pronouns are she/her.

Jennifer – My name is Jennifer and I'm a Breastfeeding Counsellor and Breastfeeding Educator with the Australian Breastfeeding Association. My pronouns are she/her.

Jessica – This podcast records in different parts of Australia. We acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands we're recording on, and of the lands that you're listening on, we pay our respects to elders past, present and emerging and to any Indigenous people listening. We also acknowledge the long history of oral storytelling on this country and of women supporting each other to learn to feed their babies.

Jennifer – I'd like to acknowledge that today we're recording in the Land of the Dja Dja Wurrung people.

Jessica – Today we are talking about the eight month-old baby. So, Jennifer, what's going on in the brain of an eight month-old baby?

Jennifer – Well, a lot. The eight month-old baby is learning so much. There's so much going on. They're at the point where they're rolling. They may well be learning to crawl. They're certainly often sitting up and reaching out and playing with toys. Eight-month-old babies can play peekaboo because they can understand that something can disappear and reappear because they have something called object permanence. So they're learning that you can also leave the room and that they can call out and you'll come back. Eight-month-old babies have awareness of strangers, they start now, knowing by eight months who are known people and who aren't. At three months old a baby will happily take a cuddle from anyone. But at eight months... Around eight months, eight to nine months, ‘I don't want to be around somebody I don't know, I don't trust’. They look carefully at somebody and may be very uncertain about a new person approaching them. And at the same time, because they're able to understand that parents can leave and come back and that that happens on and off through the day, they can start having something called separation anxiety where they don't like being separated, they can start understanding that you're going to go and ‘I don't know when you're coming back’. So that can be this is whole lots of changes. Babies are learning so many new things physically and emotionally. So they're very busy babies often, but also quite emotional and needy babies.

Jennifer – I think it's a protective thing at this age when children are learning to crawl, it makes sense that they also need to work out when they crawl and reach somebody, they should look up and work out ‘wait a minute, are you mum or dad?  Are you a stranger?  Should I climb up into your arms or should I go backwards and find the person that I needed?’  And so, you know, babies are curious and they're learning so much.  I think one of the biggest challenges is that the impact of all of this brain development and all of these changes on family, the family itself is quite significant.

Jessica – So what happens with families?

Jennifer – So I think the first is that it can be very confusing because your baby both wants to kind of play and do their own thing, but also be with you all the time. They want to play, but the moment you leave the room to go and get a basket of washing, they may burst into tears. Or if they're like my eldest child and already crawling and pulling themself up to stand, they follow you everywhere you go and you're like ‘But you were happily playing a minute ago with those toys, I could not have distracted you for, you know, anything. That toy was fascinating to you, but the moment I left the room, you are there at my feet and I'm going to trip over you with a basket full of washing’.  So, and my second child was a bit of pudding very happy to sit still and just scream until I came back.

Jennifer – So it is very confusing for many parents who don't understand this or haven't had somebody explain this because they will be very upset when you are not with them. At the same time learning to be, doing all these things themselves and seeming quite happy until you left the room. The other bit is that because these babies are learning to explore the world, very curious about the world, but needing lots of reassurance, their brain is developing really quickly. They often want to be back in your arms. These are bigger babies. When they were two weeks old and four weeks old, they wanted to be in your arms a lot, they were quite literally now three, maybe four kilos, but they might be seven or eight kilos at this stage, they’re heavy little babies and they want to be in your arms and they want to be on your hip. I mean, I had to babywear a lot to be able to survive the eight to nine months sort of phase through till about honestly, until my kids were like 13, 14 months. This was pretty constant. And at eight months it was a huge shock to the system. It felt a lot like they were seeking me out to recharge on time with me, seeking me out to recharge on breastfeeding, meeting a whole lot of needs through breastfeeding in a way that they hadn't been at six months. They would come and breastfeed. At four months they come, they breastfeed and they play and they were very busy babies and wanting to play and not worried about me if I left the room. Whereas at this stage, if I left the room and I came back, they were distressed. They needed to come and have a breastfeed and be in my arms and have a cuddle as reassurance that I hadn't disappeared forever. I found it really challenging and I think lots of mums do.

Jessica – So we've talked a little bit about the changes happening in a baby's brain. What about changes happening in their body?

Jennifer – I think there's a few things that go on for their body. One is that there's a lot of physicality happening.

Jessica – Yes!

Jennifer – So they’re learning to do new things so they can become tired. Children might have accidents, they're pulling themselves up to stand and falling down, or they're learning to crawl and they get themselves stuck under the sofa and call out because they're stuck and they try to go backwards, but their head’s too big and they're stuck underneath the sofa or something. Children are often, whether they're rolling around the room or pulling themselves up to stand, children are going through physical changes in their body that make things both interesting, but also there's a risk they fall and they might hurt themselves and need us. Beyond that, the other things that are happening is that they're now they're on solids and have maybe been on solids for a couple of months, around eight months and their bowels have changed. So, you know, when babies first start on solids, they might having only having a teaspoon or so a day to start with or a couple of teaspoons.  By eight months, they might be having a few tablespoons each meal and so their poos are different. They don't smell like that beautiful, sweet breastfed baby poo. They are smelly, they change colour. Some babies, if they eat a bit too much, might get a bit constipated and you've got to back off on the solids a bit to give them a bit more breastfeeding to rehydrate them. At this age, most of their nutritional needs are being met by breastmilk still, but solids is incredibly important sort of addition. It's the supplement at this age.

Jennifer – But what that means is that they are their behaviour changes, they might be really seeking out food and get a bit frustrated if you say that's enough or they might not want to eat food, but you know, they need to have some because they haven't eaten much today and there can be some stress and worry about that. I think the big things are that feeding may be still very frequent or you might notice some spacing out. They're feeding a little bit, every child is different. At eight months still, generally, you're giving your breastfeed before they have solids, so they're still having quite a lot of milk during the day. I think the biggest challenge, though, is a lot of people notice that sleep changes at eight months.  People quite often, I've heard lots of people talk about a sleep regression and I think that's really challenging for us as parents because what that feels like is we're going backwards and something bad has happened, but in fact it's a progression. It's a sleep progression. Our child is developed and grown at eight months. They're aware that we're still in the house. They know we still exist when they can't see us. So if they wake up and they can't see us, they may call out. We're in the living room having a bit of private time, watching some telly because they've gone to bed and they call out in a way that before they may not have, they may have rolled over and been happy to go back to sleep. They're also learning so much that they sometimes get a bit over-tired, their napping might change. They might have been sleeping, and more consistently through the night around, you know, sometimes around five or six months and then it's changed again. And that, the biggest challenge I always found with anything to do with parenting and certainly supporting parents is that just the moment you feel like you understand your child's needs. And I've got this, I know what I'm doing, I've got a good pattern. Your child grows and changes and you've got to do it again. And I think that it's useful to remind yourself that this is a sleep progression. My child is learning different things. My child is progressing through, they sleeping like an eight month-old, not like a four month-old or a two month-old now. And that, with that comes sometimes a need for some more support for the family.

Jessica – And my, both of my kids were very early walkers as well. Both walked at around nine months and so I found that they were so interested in the world during the day, that they were running around.  They were off exploring.  I've got this new skill that I can do. I can, you know, be up on my feet like everyone else is.’ So they would come back to me and they would have a breastfeed and but it would be a very, very quick breastfeed that would take the edge off of their hunger. And then off they would go again. They would run and they'd be out and I'd be playing. But then at night-time, everything was boring and they wanted to feed and they kind of needed to because they hadn't had that many breastfeeds during the day.

Jennifer – I think that was the same for me with my eldest, but with my youngest.  She just loved, adored breastfeeding and wasn't as interested in food and she didn't really walk. I think my yeah, my oldest was crawling at like four months and very early and my youngest didn't walk until 17 months, so she was happy to sit there, quite happily play at my feet and come back in my arms and have a long, leisurely breastfeed. The difference for her was that she was very, more the stranger awareness and the fear, that separation was much more heightened than her brother, who was a curious little fella. So it is very different - your child may not be somebody who is as fearful of strangers, but all children have some wariness of strangers and a little bit of watch and wait, and that's probably more what my first child did is just watch and then work out ‘No, you’re okay’, whereas my second child would hide in my arms and face me until they’d had had plenty of time to kind of be in this person’s space and feel safe and secure. And then they might go ‘hello’.

Jennifer – I think the challenge for lots of us when we've got little ones is that there are times when the outside world will say that it's not okay, that your child is feeding as frequently. Or that, you know, when you respond to their needs, that that's a problem. I think the big thing is when our little ones are, you know, two or three months old and they cry, we know that they're not demanding something because they're manipulating us. We know that they've got a need and we need to meet it. At eight months, it's the same. But because they're a bit bigger and they're doing things themselves, we can convince ourselves that this is a want. My child wants me and, and it's common, I remember feeling it.  Resentful that my child wouldn't let me pee on my own. ‘Just leave me alone for just a minute, I just want to pee with the door shut and no, my door had to be open so my child could see me at all times and crawl up onto me and touch me while I was trying to pee.

Jennifer – And that was pretty overwhelming with my first. But in fact, in hindsight it wasn't a want, he wasn't wanting to disturb me. That's what he did when he was seven and knocked on the door every time I went to the toilet because he wanted me to answer a question or let him use the remote control and change the telly or play the PlayStation. But at eight months it's still a need. It just is easier to convince ourselves because the world tells us something different, that our baby is a bit older and they don't have the same needs. They do. They need, they need to feel safe and secure. One of the things I always felt was like I was their launching place, that I was the safe place to come back to and the safe place to leave.

Jennifer – That's a really challenging thing though. You can feel really like you’re everything. One of the things about this eight month-old babies that I often think about is whether you are a mum who's primarily home breastfeed, either breastfeeding mum at home, caring for your child with a partner or support person who's working with you and doing that sort of secondary care role in the household.  Whether you're parents who are sharing the role, you may be a mum who's gone back to work and your partner is the primary carer or even a single mum doing this on your own. In my experience, it doesn't really matter, one parent is usually the preferred parent and the child often in the case of a breastfed child, that's mum and often in the case of any child really, it's mum if she's the main carer. But what tends to happen is that parent feels like they are the one who is meeting all of those physical and emotional needs with their body and it can start feeling like your body isn't your own.

Jessica – It's exhausting too.

Jennifer – It is, it is. And I remember, when the first time I realised I felt touched out and I didn't want anyone else to touch me for 20 minutes. I didn’t want my child to touch me. If my mum had offered to give me a back massage, I would have probably screamed ‘don't touch me’. I had had so much at the end of a busy week of children being on me that I just needed some space. And that's a really common thing we hear from mums with little ones at eight, nine, ten months as well, is this sense of feeling touched out and like my children are on me all the time. It doesn't have to be mums, it may be Dad, it may be another caregiver who's doing the primary role. But what we know is that eight months, that's often the time that it starts and you can feel like, wow.

Jessica – yep, yep. So baby's eight months old, been on solids for probably a couple of months, given that they've started around six months. So is breastmilk still important?

Jennifer – Breast milk is still very important. Little ones need milk as their primary food. In this case, you know, breastmilk, if a little one isn't having breastmilk or is having some breastmilk, but not all breastmilk, they still need formula. The reality is that milk meets the majority of their dietary needs, as far as a lot of their calorific needs and other vitamins right up until 12 months. It isn't the only thing and it isn't the most important thing, but it does meet a lot of those needs. What we know is that when we know about breastmilk supply is that between four weeks and around six months, the average amount of milk a mum who's breastfeeding will be making will be about 800, maybe 850 mL. And the national guidelines talk about between seven and by 12 months, but mums are still making 5 to 600 mL of breastmilk. So that drop from say 800 down to 5 to 600 mL isn't a dramatic drop between six and 12 months.

Jennifer – Breastmilk still going to be a big part of their diet, they're still having quite a bit. A little one who’s having formula is still having quite a bit of that. And when they, children are over 12 months, they may transition to also having some dairy milk to drink of some sort or a non-dairy milk. As long as they're breastfeeding, breastfeeding is still an important part of their diet. And breastmilk from 6 to 12 months is still a really important part of their diet, and it means they're often feeding still quite frequently; eight months they're still breastfeeding before they have solids often.

Jessica – But for any baby that's under 12 months, they still parents still need to think of their diet as primarily being breastmilk or infant formula.  And secondarily being solid foods.

Jennifer – I guess you probably could talk about as though solids foods being the supplements or whatever additional things they need and the solid foods are also all about texture, taste, experience and learning.

Jessica – So when does breastmilk stop being nutritionally valuable then Jennifer?

Jennifer – That's a great question. It never does, what we know is that there is evidence that children around the world may have breastfed to somewhere between four and seven in different cultures, that's four and seven years of age. Somewhere in there, many children are breastfed. If you imagine I don't know what happened on this land that we're sitting on today, but there wasn't cow’s milk, there wasn't cheese. Children in traditional societies had breastmilk as part of their diet until they were three, four, five, six, because when they were sick or when the water wasn't safe, breastmilk was. They didn't have the gut health to manage some of those more complex things that the adults could. And we know that's the case. I remember, I remember when I went to a tour when I was in England on a Viking tour, and I was told, shockingly, that children breastfed till three or four and then they moved to beer because beer was, they used to move to small beer because that was brewed and therefore it didn't have the bacteria and it was safer than the water, and they thought I would be surprised, when I go ‘I'm still breastfeeding my 15-month-old, that doesn't surprise me in the slightest’, but that's the truth, we know that Viking children were breastfed to somewhere between two and four, and then they were weaned onto small beer.

Jessica – Straight to beer.

Jennifer – Because the water wasn't safe and they didn't know that they should just boil the water. But that's the reality, breastmilk doesn't stop becoming nutritionally valuable to a child at any particular point. But as children get older and they feed less, the volume they're taking in is less, the milk sometimes it becomes a bit more concentrated. So it's meeting less of their fluid needs, but maybe still making quite a bit of their vitamin needs, certainly making some of their immune boosting needs and some of their calorie needs as long as it's happening. But that will change as they grow in the eating more and more. In the second year, it isn't as much a primary source of their nutrition.

Jessica – Yeah, I think that’s so cool how breastmilk changes again as children start to get closer to finishing up breastfeeding. It's just incredible. It's like it's their final gift from breastfeeding. Is this, you know, nutritional and immune booster like just sort of packing a punch to set them free off into the world.

Jennifer – I think it's really amazing the way that breastmilk changes throughout children's growth and development. And I think the fact is that at eight months, the breastmilk probably isn't that different to what it was at six months, and certainly therefore not it's not that different to four and two months. Breastmilk probably changes more dramatically as children approached kind of the last six months of their breastfeeding journey, whenever that is, as the milk supply slowly whittles away as they're having, you know, five feeds, then four, then three, and maybe then two or one a day, the volumes will be less and the milk will change dramatically.  But it's quite likely you know, the research shows us, that it still meets a lot of their need right up until 12 months.

Jessica – Final question for you. What advice do you have for parents who either might be listening and they, because they have an eight month-old baby right now or maybe they've got a baby sort of six, seven months old, they're coming up to that age. What advice do you have for them?

Jennifer – I think the first piece of advice is to be kind to yourself, which is very common when they’ve got babies who, can be quite needy, to feel a little bit overwhelmed. Asking for help, expecting that you may need to ask more than once, often you know, can you give me a hand with something, perhaps asking, you know, parents or an aunty, an uncle or family member or even a neighbour or a friend to give you a hand. ‘Yeah. Yeah, I'll help you.’ They may not realise that how intense that need is for you, right now. So reminding them, “listen, my eight month-old has been really needy, I could really use a hand’, is really important. Acknowledging that there are days when you might feel like, we talked about being touched out. I used to message my partner when I was having a day like that. He would, he was working, and then when my partner was coming home, if I knew I was really struggling, I'd give him a heads-up. So he would come in the door knowing that I was going to pass the kids to him and go and have a shower or go to the toilet with the door shut, whatever I needed. Even that he might take the kids for a walk while I just had 5 minutes of peace.

Jennifer – I was lucky, I had a very supportive partner who was available and present and very supportive, breastfeeding and very confident in supporting our kids with their needs. That doesn't happen for everyone. For me, the other people I turned to was, I was very lucky to have two lovely older neighbours in their early 80s who were very happy to sit and watch the kids while I had a shower once a fortnight. They took turns and then once they’d started that they started knocking on the door a bit often because they really enjoyed, because my kids knew them and saw them regularly, really enjoyed playing patty cake with my son or watching them build the Lego or watching Playschool with them while I just had a little bit of time. They were, as I said, both women in their 80s whose grandchildren live far away and they didn't get to see them much. So that for me was an incredible level of support.

Jennifer – You may not have that, but there probably is somebody in your life who, if you asked them and said, listen, you know, even once a fortnight if somebody could give me a hand, or, ‘If on a Saturday you could pop in and give me time to run to the shops and get those things that I need to do without having to take the kids’, or a support person is happy to watch the kids while they're asleep, while you go and have a bubble bath and don't have to worry about the kids for an hour can make such a difference to managing. And I think the other thing is reminding yourself that this eight month-old baby's needs are important. Your needs are important, too, but this won’t last forever. It will pass - can make a big difference.

Jessica – And come to an ABA meeting. Even if you're having a terrible day sometimes that you know, if you're feeling very touched out, the connection with other people who are going through the same thing is really, really valuable. And you know, there'll be other babies that can distract your baby while you have a hot cup of tea and complain to someone else who will say: ‘I know how that feels. I've just been through that. I came out the other side and it does get better’.

Jennifer – Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I think coming along to a meeting with the Australian Breastfeeding Association, actually, that's how I survived really, that I was able to go along and go, ‘My children haven't let me have five minutes to myself for the last two days’, and I'm here and they're happily playing on the floor so someone else would sit near me and possibly offer a little bit support and encouragement for my older child to play and even play with my little one. Just while I had that cup of tea, made a big difference.

Jessica – Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for speaking with me today about the eight month-old baby. You can check out the show notes for a link to this episode’s blog, and to some other information as well. If you're in a position to support the work that ABA does financially, you can become a member by visiting breastfeeding dot asn dot au, and that will link you in with your local group as well. If you need to speak with a Breastfeeding Counsellor, call the National Breastfeeding Helpline on 1800 686 268.  So that's open 24 hours a day every day of the year. Our LiveChat service is another option, so you can check the website to see when that's open. Thanks heaps for listening, we'd love it if you can rate, review and subscribe to the Breastfeeding ABA podcast wherever you're listening.

Get Help